#Copyleft
@lightweight@social.fossdle.org great to learn about the Ulysses Pact... Especially with #Copyleft being the modern day equivalent to tying yourself to the mast to hear the sirens...
Copy Far "AI"
"Copy Far 'AI' - A license close to copyleft, but far from the so-called 'Artificial Intelligences'."
Nice move, google. Just blame the user.
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As Day #9 of the #SoftwareFreedomFestival continues, let's appreciate how copyleft ensures that software remains free to use, study, share and improve. It's a powerful tool for defending software freedom and protecting user rights. #Copyleft #FreeSoftware #SoftwareFreedom #FSF #GNU
Thanks for the recommendation, Jeff!
I had not heard of Heather Meeker's Open (Source) for Business, 2020 book (third edition), until you just recommended it. I've just ordered myself a copy.
#foss #fosh #floss #flosh #freesoftware #libresoftware #opensource #proprietary #userrights #users #userfreedom #affero #afferogpl #gplv3 #afferogplv3 #gpl #copyleft #heathermeeker
@ramblingsteve even then I don't think it'd be acceptable. I think all gov't procured by government needs to be open standards compliant (see https://openstandards.nz) and any development funded by public $ needs to be fully #Libre - #Copyleft as is currently 'recommended' in NZ with the NZGOAL-SE, but routinely ignored by procurement agents because vendors - surprise surprise - make a lot more money by selling gov't proprietary software that adheres to few if any open standards.
@gblanc05 où est le problème ? La science ouverte est ... ouverte. Libre à chacun de faire du pognon avec ou pas.
#copyleft
Pareil pour les logiciels libres: ils sont souvent utilisés par des grosses boites pour faire du pognon.
D'autre part, si les études sérieuses restent sous clé, que reste-t-il pour informer le public sur internet ?
@fanta No sé si ya lo mencionaron (perdón en tal caso), pero #qBittorrent es lo que recomiendo/uso hace décadas: tiene motores de búsqueda incorporados que revisan muchos trackers, de ahí mismo pones a descargar, es básicamente todo lo que un ser humano necesita. 😉 Ojalá le sirva a alguien. ¡Saludos #P2P!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBittorrent
https://www.qbittorrent.org/
#torrent #floss #freesoftware #softwarelibre #gpl #copyleft
🎉 New Changelog interview!
This week @adam & @jerod are joined by @sogrady, Principal Analyst & Co-founder at Red Monk 🙌
Steve believes open source is at a crossroads and there are some seeking to break the definition of open source to one that is more permissive to their desires, and they are closer than ever to achieving that goal 😳
#opensource #foss #oss #licensing #gpl #copyleft #mit #freedom
Detailed reference:
https://axbom.com/fediverse/
Thanks to @axbom #fediverse #floss #software #copyleft
Licences libres : le copyleft est-il caduque ?
#licences #copyleft #gpl #lgpl
https://www.geek-directeur-technique.com/2023/08/08/licences-libres-le-copyleft-est-il-caduque
Forty years ago, it started with the four freedoms; today, the GNU Project, GPL and other GNU licenses, and copyleft is still going strong; on September 27 and October 1, we're celebrating those hard-won freedoms in Biel (Switzerland) and Boston, MA (USA). Read more about our hacker history and these upcoming events: https://u.fsf.org/40k #GNU40 #GPL #FreeSoftware #Copyleft #HackDay #Hackers #HappyHacking #FourFreedoms
@yogthos "unintentionally" as in: the #copyleft of the #GPL does not have teeth when it’s just used on a server, and too few people chose the #AGPL to preserve copyleft.
See what Google has to say about it: https://opensource.google/documentation/reference/using/agpl-policy
AGPL has been available since 2002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License
@ErictheCerise
> "HashiCorp that has forked its own projects under a different license"
This is another reminder never to assign your copyright to a private company. License them to use it under a copyleft license, but keep the copyright. If they want to avoid publishing code for their modifications, make them pay you for a copyleft exemption (if you're willing to grant one, you don't have to).
(1/2)
#copyleft #CopyleftExemption #copyright #CopyrightAssignment
@gwilymgj Totally agree. The whole 'startup' mentality is, on a society level, an 'own-goal'. Build companies designed to be sold to offshore monopolists, taking with them only the best and brightest. Dumb-as. All gov't funded software should be #Copyleft licensed, as stipulated in #NZGOAL-SE - although it's almost never adhered to by gov't agencies, because they almost never seem to understand what they're doing.
« Fables » #comics enters the #PublicDomain
« I chose to give it away to everyone. If I couldn't prevent #Fables from falling into bad hands, at least this is a way I can arrange that it also falls into many good hands. Since I truly believe there are still more good people in the world than bad ones, I count it as a form of victory. »
Copyleft's a powerful tool for defending software freedom. By requiring that derivative works also be free, copyleft licenses like the GNU AGPL ensure that of the users of a program have the freedom to control their computing, not just some of them. #copyleft #freesoftware
I'm spending significant amount of my working time avoiding #copyleft licenses only to realize that I might be volunteering within an organization that promotes copyleft. 🤦♀️
J'adore le nom de cette maison d'édition : @CopieGauche ; cela fait bien entendu écho à la licence #CopyLeft :blobcatheart:
Leurs livres seront en licence :cc: et le premier est en pré-vente sur #Ulule :
@mttaggart thanks for the explanation - fwiw, I'm a data point demonstrating a developer can make a good living as a purely #LibreSoftware dev (#Copyleft is my preference)... my whole career thus far (~30 years)... I don't think proprietary software is really inevitable... nor (in any way) desirable.
In other words: it does not follow that 'paid software developers' depends on proprietary software.
And, aside from the odd bit of firmware/BIOS, my entire computing toolset is Libre.
#Copyleft
#Klausel in #urheberrechtlichen #Nutzungslizenzen, die #Lizenznehmer verpflichtet, die #Bearbeitung (#Erweiterung, #Veränderung) unter die #Lizenz des #ursprünglichen #Werks zu stellen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
Application Service Provider #ASP #Schlupfloch / #Loophole: Wenn die #Benutzung #GPL #lizensierter #Software ohne #Weitergabe einen #proprietären #closed #Source #Betrieb ermöglicht. #AGPL als #Fix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License
#FOSDEM John #Sullivan https://yt.oelrichsgarcia.de/watch?v=XGa_TlRdtG8
L'éditorial de linuxmao.org du mois de septembre 2023 est en ligne :
http://linuxmao.org/article448
#linuxmao #linuxaudio #mao #musiquelibre #art #artlibre #cc-by-sa #chanson #copyleft #creative-commons #culture-libre #gnu-linux #informatiquemusicale #logiciel libre #productionmusicale
Copyleft ensures that software remains free to use, modify, and distribute. It's a powerful tool for protecting user freedoms. #copyleft #FreeSoftware
Copyleft is a powerful tool for defending software freedom. By using copyleft licenses like the GNU AGPL, we can ensure that software remains free for all users to modify, study, and share - not just some of them. #copyleft #freesoftware
And I then found my books on two other #flipbook websites. Reported them and all of them (poss the same company but different responders and domains) deleted the entry rather than change the metadata.
These sites let anyone upload any book they want without question. So they will happily accept a posting which breaches #copyright but they cannot possibly accomodate a #copyleft situation where they are permitted to share the works but need to acknowledge the creator.
Sigh again. #ccbysa
Copyleft ensures that software remains free. It's an important defense for maintaining our digital freedoms. #Copyleft #FreeSoftware
Did you know about the 2007 version of my website? (images 1 & 2)
#copyleft #freeMusic #trad #lilypond
Since that distant version, I put more and more scores on it and, in 2016, I designed a database to help me find my way around the biographies linked to the scores. I've been filling it in ever since... (images 3 & 4)
https://www.monviolon.org/en/
Siguiendo con la campaña de dar a conocer la genial obra sobre #fotografia y #softwarelibre que realizó #Jen0f0nte para #Colaboratorio, os dejo un enlace torrent que hemos añadido hace poco a la web, para que os resulte más fácil -y ligero- descargarla.
Hemos comprimido el archivo y lo hemos subido a Archive, que gestionan muy bien los archivos torrent. Recuerda que es una obra #CreativeCommons, así que no hay problema con sus derechos de copia, que son #copyleft.
Te va a encantar tener "Fotografía Libre" y usarla para conseguir mejores fotos. ¡¡Y ahora puedes hacerte con ella más fácilmente!!
https://archive.org/download/fotografia-libre.pdf.tar.gz/fotografia-libre.pdf.tar.gz_archive.torrent
@AmenZwa not really historically correct. Nobody paid for the compilers on ITS or Lisp Machines. The radical idea wasn’t that #GNU gcc was free as in beer, if you wanted a tape you had to pay for it. But rather the advent of #Copyleft licenses, which meant that if you redistribute you have to give them the same rights you have. #FreeSoftware
Strong copyleft licenses like the GNU AGPL ensure that software remains free for all. Choosing this is a small step for a programmer, a giant leap for user freedom. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/copyleft.en.html #GNU #Copyleft
That reminds me! Since I moved from #Akkoma to #Firefish and had to switch subdomains, I think a new #introduction is in order!
Hi, my name is Carlos Solís, from Costa Rica (or Rich Coast, for the Spanish-challenged in the audience 😉). I'm a computer science graduate and have been working in the digital area for ten years now. I've been on the #FreeSoftware scene since my college days on and off for over ten years now, and in fact I've taken it so seriously, that this message has been posted from my #SelfHosted server in my own house in Santa Ana.
My other interests include #Linguistics, especially #Auxlangs and #Conlangs (besides of my native Spanish, the related #RomanceLanguages such as Portuguese and Italian which I can sort of understand, and the bits of German and Japanese that I learned online, I also know the basics of #Esperanto and #Idolinguo, plus I've dabbled in more obscure languages such as #LingwaDePlaneta and #Uropi), #FreeCulture and #Copyleft works (though for historic reasons I've drifted away from some projects such as the SCP Foundation), #Accessibility / #A11Y (especially relevant since I work a lot on frontend online tools), and #Cybersecurity (again, relevant as I sometimes work full-stack).
Pronouns if you need them: "He" is best, "they"/"it"/"one" are odd but understandable in context, "she" is very much a miss (pun a bit intended there!)
We have added the EUPL. It is a reciprocal or copyleft licence that may also be distributed and operated together with packages under other copyleft licences without causing incompatibilities:
https://www.python4data.science/en/latest/productive/licensing.html#copyleft-or-reciprocal-licences
#oss #copyleft #osi #fsf
I just became aware of The EUPL licence. It is a reciprocal copyleft licence, meaning that distributed contributions and improvements, so-called derivatives are returned or shared with the licensor and all other users. However, unlike other copyleft licences such as the GPL or AGPL, the EUPL is compatible and interoperable with most other open reciprocal licences: https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/introduction-eupl-licence
#oss #copyleft #osi #fsf
Copyleft ensures that the software freedom we enjoy today continues for tomorrow's users: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/copyleft.en.html #GNU #Copyleft
I love #GitHub, but is the fact that it is a proprietry, trade-secret system that goes against Free and Open Source Software (#FOSS) principles an issue? Even if you think not, then surely their unpermitted use of #copyleft code to train for-profit #Copilot is an issue. Really interesting article from @conservancy diving into this issue here: https://sfconservancy.org/GiveUpGitHub/
Though this is based on a technicality it would be really interesting to see if more AI generated content will end up being un-copyrightable, here's holding thumbs #AI #copyleft #copyright https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/08/us-judge-art-created-solely-by-artificial-intelligence-cannot-be-copyrighted/
How #Copyleft licenses (like the #GPL) and #LibreSoftware aka #FOSS aka #FreeSoftware can help us all avoid #DigitalColonisation by proprietary US Big Tech & protect our #DigitalSovereignty via the founder of #NextCloud https://video.resolutions.it/w/4d5c5b1d-9613-4201-8d55-9e7906f42518 We need to break the cycle we're currently in. It's expensive, disempowering, & *brittle*. And it's unfit for purpose.
Please don't read this as enthusiasm for copyright or the legal system around so-called intellectual property that we're stuck with. Those systems are capitalist garbage.
I'm looking for ways outside these systems to protect human freedoms around computing. And I'm currently coming up blank. Hence, harping on #copyleft.
The idea of needing a license to get a computer to do what you want is so bafflingly stupid. It just seems to be what we're stuck with for now.
Copyright is inherently broken and must be replaced all together.
Thought this was a nice presentation of reciprocal and non-reciprocal open source licenses, and why this is not the most important debate to have about open source licenses right now.
https://meshedinsights.com/2017/11/15/cause-effect-and-license-choice/
#foss #floss #opensource #freesoftware #libresoftware #ls #copyleft #copyright #softwarelicense
Maybe #copyleft is a better specifier for the corner of #FOSS I'm excited about, where the licensed work is (waving hands) legally irrevocably enshrined as a public good, for all to share. This has worked remarkably well so far to ensure your rights through time as a work of software evolves in the commons, where open source fails repeatedly.
Usually if I'm referring to a free software license I mean GPL-family anyway, for which copyleft is a more precise term.
4/4
If I was to be cynical:
The less #copyleft #solarpunk #art we have available, the more people will use #aiArt to illustrate their articles, spreading its stolen, inconsistent and misleading style wider.
The best solution? Commission more artists to make #creativeCommons art and pay them more. I'm trying to help with that.
But we also need to acknowledge we cannot be afraid of the permissive copyleft licenses in themselves.
I understand artists who wouldn't like their art to be shared the same way.
I just don't agree that the process is exploitative in itself.
We need #copyleft art to spread the ideas without being worried that we used a license _wrong_. Every time I tried contacting a magazine publisher / conf organized about drafting a separate contract with an artist living abroad, they decided it's too hard and went for a really bad quality stock / stole some copyrighted art instead.
We've just had a discussion regarding an #art #contest asking for #creativeCommons (CC-BY-SA) licensed works and how it could be exploitative for the #artists
I understand that taking part in such a thing is a risk, since others can use your works even if you don't win, but would you consider taking part in it if CC-licensed entries came with higher rewards?
Thank you for helping me understand artists better and please feel free to elaborate!
@JustinLachance @tod It's called "Formulating a #NuancedOpinion" and I can highly recommend it.
It's way more complex but it allows for some consistent yet realistic approaches.
I.e. one can acknowledge that #grsecurity and #RedHat showed the need for stronger #Copyleft whilst also noting that neither #GPLv3 nor #AGPLv3 nor #SSPL doesn't adress that problem and instead demand illegal actions to comply [i.e. surrendering all patents] which ignore the reality of #tech.
@kkarhan @ian Also organizations developing #FOSS licenses (especially #copyleft ones) such as FSF or OSI underestimate they how much large corps can exploit the licenses, such as all the patents, DRM, CLA, tivotization, now with EULA and contracts,...
Also most FOSS advocate organizations realized that large corps do have enough resources to replace a unwanted licensed components to another, and license the whole work under an older license and they cannot do anything against it.
" #Libraries came before publishers. We came before copyright. But publishers now think of libraries as customer service departments for their database products. ” #copyright #copyleft https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/13/business/media/internet-archive-emergency-lending-library.html
@mjg59 @jenniferplusplus @blogdiva
Do not #Copyleft licences, like #GPLv3, work by ensuring that any software that includes the code be #FOSS also?
What the above describes is #softwareTheft.
For example #MastodonDevs by allowing #HellaDoge to not provide source code for years, with a notification of such by us, are allowing software #theft, right?
@rad OTOH, if you happen to be looking for ways to help prevent potential commercial abuse, or proprietary modifications of your software, history has shown so-called reciprocal or #copyleft licenses more effective in doing so.
The obligation to provide source code for modifications upon distribution of those modifications often ends up encouraging would-be commercial users of #FreeSoftware to contribute their improvements back to the community.
More info: https://copyleft.org/guide/
@rain not necessarily...
Some #Copyleft and/or #OpenSource don't allow you to do that.
I'm not just talking about "published source" like #Tarsnap's client, but also #AGPLv3 and #SSPL which are basically designed to prevent competiton - #GAFAM or not - from making any commercial product.
Basically aiming at monopolizing any commercial product.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Affero_General_Public_License
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Side_Public_License
The most important freedoms that #Copyleft protects are those freedoms enjoyed by the *end user*.
💯 Agree!
:mastodon: 🙌 Una ayudita para encontrar comunidades en el #fediverso: ¿nos recomendáis cuentas del ámbito de los #derechosdigitales, #inteligenciaartificial y #DDHH para seguir?
👂 Nos interesan temas relacionados: #ADM #machinelearning #algoritmos #softwarelibre #opensource #algorithmicjustice #datajustice #designjustice #opendata #feminismos #decolonialidad #antirracismo #periodismo #copyleft... (en #España, #UE y #AméricaLatina, también nos valen si son en inglés).
😍 ¡Mil gracias!
I don't think that copyleft actually has any power over proprietary software. I don't see a legal end to users having a choice for proprietary software.
Currently, I see the copyright system as the only necessary legal core of copyleft. I'm open to learning other legal defenses of copyleft that don't depend on copyright at the core.
Is there another way to stop copyleft software from being used to create closed source software?
I imagine legal battles should currently be happening in this space, but I haven't heard of much, which is why I ask.
#copyleft #copyright #ai #generativeai #closedsource #proprietary
I notice that copyright holders, like Sarah Silverman, Christopher Golden, and Richard Kadrey are suing Meta and OpenAI for copyright infringement, so I hope that copyleft will have its legal battles in a similar vein.
Also, I'm betting that existing GPLv3 licenses don't mention being used as training data in other algorithms. I imagine there could be stronger legal wording in future licenses that specifies consequences for using copyleft software as training data for closed source algorithms.
Defending the copyright system seems at the heart and core of the copyleft free software agenda, and currently Sarah Silverman et al seems to be leading the charge.
#sarahsilverman #copyleft #gpl #gplv3 #ai #generativeai #license #copyright #userrights #opensource
@fsf Where can I read about the legal licensing and copyleft issues surrounding generative AI algorithms like LLMs (Large Language Models) like Chat-GPT or Copilot, trained on GPL'd source code?
I wonder if there is a need for a new license that explicitly makes training generative AI on open source code requires the AI model to be open sourced?
Does the FSF have any written opinions or educational materials related to this topic of the relationship between copyleft and generative AI trained on copyleft source code?
#gpl #copyleft #generativeai #chatgpt #copilot #foss #floss #libresoftware #freesoftware
"Debates continue, even today, in copyleft expert circles, whether this model itself violates GPL. There is, however, no doubt that this provision is not in the spirit of the GPL agreements. The RHEL [Red Hat Enterprise Linux] business model is unfriendly, captious, capricious, and cringe-worthy."
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/jun/23/rhel-gpl-analysis/
https://nogithub.codeberg.page/
I’m not quite ready to jump ship but I do think M$💩 need to get their act together and start respecting licenses.
I fight for the users.
I love programming and thinking and talking about thinking. I have an education (BS, MS, PhD) focused on artificial intelligence and neuroscience.
I'm an advocate of the public academic pursuit of knowledge, the scientific process, peer review, and I see open source software and hardware as an essential part of the scientific process.
I see software user rights, including security and privacy, to be protected mainly by free open source software, specifically software with a copyleft license, i.e. GPL or Mozilla.
I see the democratizing effects of the Internet, including distributed journalism and social networking, to be largely the effect of the collaborative development of free and open source software.
I am interested in free and open source manufacturing, including open source 3D printers and CNC machines. I believe open source manufacturing will be important for distributed manufacturing, allowing local manufacturing and local labor.
I see worker-owned coops as the way to safely transition from a non-democratic authoritarian top-down power structure of a traditional corporation to a democratic work environment, where the workers own the company and elect the board of directors, transitioning to democracy in the workplace.
I believe that socialism is a regulatory response to capitalism.
I believe that laws, money, corporations, and government are social agreements, and I'm in favor of democratic social agreements.
I believe in the organized non-violent boycott as a way to control capitalists and change corrupt systems.
I am a pacifist. I am against violence. I am against citizens keeping guns in cities and towns with children. I am against war.
I try to eat plant-based / vegan foods to boycott the animal industry, to help with the climate crisis, to improve my health, to avoid animal cruelty, and to avoid the extinction of species of plants, animals and ecosystems.
I have been diagnosed with Retinitus Pigmentosa, which is a disease of progressive retinal degeneration. I am legally blind, although I have about 5-degrees of vision remaining in my fovea. I'm interested in researching and developing BCIs (Brain-Computer Interfaces), specifically BCIs that function as vision prostheses that may help with conditions like RP, or the more common degenerative retinal disease AMD (Age-related Macular Degeneration).
I enjoy playing computer games like Age of Empires and Rimworld. I used to program computer games when I was younger and would like to get back to it one day.
I love playing music, especially bass guitar. I've been listening to a lot of Rage Against the Machine and Enya recently.
I enjoy reading books, mostly non-fiction.
I enjoy studying religions. I've found a lot of value in Buddhism, and I meditate often daily.
Nina and I have recently had our first baby, a boy we named Tyoma.
I'm currently working at Apple on the Vision Pro headset team.
#users #fightforusers #userrights #programming #thinking #thinkingaboutthinking #ai #artificialintelligence #neuroscience #journalism #science #scientificprocess #peerreview #foss #fosh #flosh #floss #freeandopensource #freedomsoftware #libresoftware #copyleft #gpl #agpl #mozilla #license #ls #academia #privacy #security #democracy #internet #socialnetwork #distributed #cnc #3dprinting #locallabor #localmanufacturing #coop #workerowned #democracyatwork #regulation #laws #money #corporations #government #socialagreement #boycott #controlcapital #nonviolent #pacifist #antivolence #antigun #noguns #schoolshooting #antiwar #plantbased #vegan #climatecrisis #animalindustry #animalcruelty #extinction #animal #plant #ecosystem #environment #retinituspigmentosa #rp #agerelatedmaculardegeneration #amd #blind #lowvision #bci #games #computergames #ageofempires #rimworld #gamedev #music #bassguitar #rageagainstthemachine #enya #religion #reading #books #readingbooks #buddhism #baby #apple #visionpro
s @webmink rightly notes in https://the.webm.ink/the-return-of-freeware the term 'free' is deeply fraught in English due to it's dual meaning: primarily 'zero cost' and only secondarily 'preserving freedom'. So the question is "How could we refer to both succinctly & unambiguously?" ... Perhaps we're not taking enough advantage of the term #Copyleft... which is quite unique to this context and signifies Free Software license with inherited properties (banned for use within many corporations, notably GOOG) 2/3
@nitot article qui parle de disquette, mais qui explique aussi l'origine de la guerre contre la copie en informatique !!
#openSource #copyright #copyleft
#Development #Reviews
Saying goodbye to GitHub · How a programmer’s experience of GitHub has changed over the years https://ilo.im/122zea
“I felt righteous anger at news of GPL violations by soulless corporations stealing the hard work of independent programmers and assimilating it into their own proprietary software. I was distraught over the open-source community being exploited.” — Ersei
_____
#GitHub #WebDevelopment #WebDev #Code #Copyleft #OpenSource #Community #GitLab #SourceHut
Giving away your copyrights is harder than cancelling an internet subscription.
https://doctorow.medium.com/commafuckers-versus-the-commons-4e8dcdcf7dee
Something I've done on every webpage I've built is to put a "© [YEAR]" but I don't know why; I don't believe in copyright. It's just an affectation, it makes the page look official. Maybe I should switch to #CreativeCommons
#JohnDeere's ongoing #GPL #violations: What's next - #Conservancy Blog - #SoftwareFreedomConservancy
"As we have been doing privately for multiple years, we now publicly call on John #Deere to immediately resolve all of its outstanding GPL violations, across all lines of its #farm equipment, by providing complete source code, including "the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable" that the GPL and other #copyleft #licenses require, to the #farmers and others who are entitled to it, by the licenses that Deere chose to use."
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/
Petition to call “liberal licenses” what they really are: “enclosable by rich people licenses.”
#mit #bsd #mpl #liberal #openSource #gpl #agpl #copyLeft #freeSoftware #foss
@ed @emilymbender or, said a different way...
My personal opinion is that copyright law is not a tool that we (society) can use to combat every potential harm or rights imbalance related to freely (maybe)redistributable digital goods, in either their production or in their use.
#Copyleft was a creative hack, but not necessarily one that can be, or should be, applied to every situation...